Adiwenni ara d-ḍefrem d timlilit akk d wemyaru i nḥemmel i tḥemlem wagi d Ziri At Mɛemmeṛ, win imecḍen i tmucuha s tmedyazt. Ad d-nuɣal ar tira-s gar wesmuḥyet d tatrara, d acuten isenfaṛen yettheggi u melmi ara d-ffɣen. Ad yili deg wawal-nneɣ, azal n Muḥya deg tira-s, imi d netta i t-id-yennan :”Kṛad i as-ifkan tudert; yemma-s i t-id-yurwen, lqibla-nni i as-igezmen timiṭ ( d tamṛabeṭ n irumyen), akked Muḥya i as-ildin allen.

Ameɣnas: Anwa-t Ziri At Mεemmer?

Z. A. M.: D amdan ilulen deg at Meslayen, yekker-d di tmurt n Yeqbayliyen almi d asmi yemmed 24 iseggasen. Di 1990 yeffeɣ-d neɣ yerwel-d ɣer berra, si 1991 ar ass-a yedder di tmurt n Lalman.

Ameɣnas: D acu i k-yewwin ɣer tira, ladɣa tamedyezt?

Z. A. M.: Ma yehwa-yak ur ẓriɣ ara d acu i d iyi-wwin ɣur-s, tzemreḍ a d-tiniḍ d nettat i d-inudan fell-i; mačči d nekk. D nettat i d iyi-rran ḥulfaɣ tezdeɣ deg-i, yessefk ad tt-id-ssufɣeɣ s tira akken ad tt-walin medden. Ahat ula d nekk luleɣ-d d amedyaz, wi ẓran? ( …idess)

Ameɣnas: Acimi tamedyezt-inek temgarad ɣef tmedyezt-nni nuɣ tannumi nsell-as. D aεǧab ur ak-teεǧib ara tmedyezt-nni taqburt neɣ d iberdan kan i tebɣiḍ ad tesseftiḍ?

Z. A. M.: Asteqsi-yagi deg-s aṭas n yesteqsiyen ɣef yiwet tikkelt. Wissen ahat tebɣiḍ a d-testeqsiḍ acimi isefra-w ufararen ɣef wiyaḍ; maca, ayagi tkukraḍ ad t-id-tiniḍ. Wissen dɣa acuɣer tkukraḍ? (…idess) D anecreḥ kan ah, ur ttagad!

Ihi tiririt-iw d ta: Ɣas lemmer ( ahat?) teɛǧeb-iyi tmedyezt taqburt, ass-a aql-aɣ di tallit n tura, ur yessefk ara ad nuɣal d tayaẓiṭ at Belqasem. Yerna tidet kan, ulac akk d acu i d iyi-ɛeǧben di tmedyezt-nneɣ taqburt. Daɣen yessefk ad teẓreḍ mačči siwa nekk i d-yewwin abrid-agi yemgaraden ɣef wagi i d-yewwi umeddaḥ di teqsiṭ, llan wiyaḍ d tiyaḍ.

Abrid-agi yemgaraden yettwakcem zdat tlalit n Ziri At Mɛemmer deg-s. Yettwanjer si tlalit n Muḥya d Ferḥat deg-s, sakin rnan-d wiyaḍ/tiyaḍ. Kra seg-sen izad nezzeh leqdic-nsen. Ziri At Mɛemmer am Wejtuṭi di tmezgunt n Muḥya: D agrud amecṭuḥ yetteddun kan gar-asen.

Ameɣnas: Nger tamawt dakken awal tferrneḍ-t, tettarraḍ-as azal annect usefru-nni i d-tettnawleḍ (tesseqdaceḍ aṭas n wawalen iqbayliyen ɣef ireṭṭalen), dacu i d sseba n waya, dacu i d iswi?

Z. A. M.: Imi s teqbaylit i ssefruyeɣ, akken walaɣ; yezwar neɣ yewwi-d lḥal ad ssqedceɣ awalen-is d imezwura. Anida i d-ttemliliɣ uguren sseqdaceɣ ayagi i wumi teqqarem awalen ireṭṭalen ula d nekk. Tikkwal sseqdaceɣ-ten ula anida ẓriɣ d nutni ara yessiwḍen izen ugar n wawalen n teqbaylit sari. Nekk ur lliɣ d asnisli, maca, d anaẓur. Ma ttbanen-d isefra-w zeddigit (ulac deg-sen aṭas n teqbaɛrabt), acku mačči kan ssneɣ aṭas n wawalen n teqbaylit, maca, d nutni i itezzin tennḍen deg uqerru-w daɣen. Ttemliliɣ-ten-id yal mi ara bɣuɣ a d-ssfeṛẓeɣ tikta-w s talɣa tamsefruyt.

Ameɣnas: Amek i teffrneḍ isental?

Z. A. M.: Ur ferrneɣ ara isental. Allaɣ-iw am lebḥer yettucewwlen ideg ɣerrqen lembaber. Imdanen iteddun deg-sen lembaber-agi d isental, win i d-yessmenɛen iman-is d amezwaru d win.

Ameɣnas: Isefra-k ttawin-d ɣef uguren d leεyub izedɣen timetti taqbaylit. Ɣas ma tidet qerriḥet, ɣas ma tikkwal s wawal qessiḥen, tezgiḍ teqqareḍ-d tiquranin. Amek i yettidir Ziri tagnit-nni n tlalit usefru? Asefru d ddwa, ddwa d arẓagan! neɣ ittkukru tamuɣli n tmeţtti s asefru-ines?

Z. A. M.: Di tagi n wamek i ttidireɣ tagnit usefru, yal tikkelt amek, mačči yiwen-is. Tikkwal ferrḥeɣ nezzeh mi ara d-afeɣ imeslayen iwulmen swayes ttmagareɣ tagnit-nni ideg lliɣ. Lḥaṣul yal tikkelt amek, iḥulfan-iw daɣen mgaraden seg usefru ɣer wayeḍ. Tiqerḥanin-agi i d-qqareɣ werǧin kukraɣ neɣ xemmemeɣ d acu ara s-inin fell-i widak i wumi ur tteɛǧaben ara ahat isefra-w, d anemgal. Ur ttagadeɣ ara, acku ẓriɣ ɣas ad qerḥeɣ yiwen, deg wul-iw d ayen yelhan kan i d as-bɣiɣ. Win ara yewwten deg-i d tamusni kan i s-tt-yekksen meskin neɣ d yir amdan i yella. Ma d aneggaru-yagi dɣa ttɛemmideɣ, teqqdeɣ tasa-w, qqqareɣ-as hemma! Ur ssefruyeɣ ara akken ad ḍelmeɣ imdanen. Mi ara teẓreḍ iman-ik deg webrid yelhan i telliḍ, ur tettkukruḍ ara ad tefkeḍ aqerru-k i lfinga. Llan daɣen kra imeslayen ḥemmleɣ ad asen-d-alseɣ ɣef usentel-agi, wigi d awalen-agi yenna bertolt Brecht; ssesrseɣ-ten-id yakan ula deg usebter amezwaru n “Awisadcut”: “Amezgun yelhan mačči d win i d asen-iɛeǧǧben i lɣaci kkaten-as afus, maca; d win yettbeddilen deg-sen kra.”

Ameɣnas: Aseqdec n wawalen uqbiḥen, s lebɣi neɣ d tamara?

Z. A. M.: Ur ẓriɣ ara d acu i tebɣiḍ a d-tiniḍ s wawalen uqbiḥen. Mi ara qqareɣ tasekla tagraɣlant ttafeɣ deg-s dakken imyura d imedyazen ttarun war tilisa, awalen d awalen merra. Anida yessefk ad aruɣ A, acku ɣef A i bɣiɣ ad mmeslayeɣ, ulamek aruɣ deg wadeg-is B. Ulamma di tmedyezt yezmer ad yili waya, maca, ima ahat nekk d B i d-qeṣṣḍeɣ mi ara d-aruɣ A? (…idess)
Yessefk ad nilit am nekkni am yemdanen, mačči am lewḥuc; yerna ula d taqbaylit tuklal a d-teffeɣ si tekwatin idel uɣebbar. Tura ẓriɣ ad ilin widak ara s-yinin yebɣa ad aɣ-tt-yerr d axxam ameqqran. Ttifxir-iyi axxam ameqqran neɣ lǧameɛ? Yerna lemmer mačči d nutni i d aɣ-yerran timetti-nneɣ d axxam ameqqran, d acu ara yawin amedyaz ad yesseqdec awalen yessefken ad ten-id-yini wemdan deg wexxam ameqqran kan? Ssarameɣ dakken tafyirt-agi taneggarut ad tili d tiririt ara k-iqennɛen ugar!

Ameɣnas: Tuget isefra-k d iɣezzfanen, acimi i tferneḍ aya?

Z. A. M.: Uriɣ aṭas isefra di ddunit-iw, zemreɣ a d-iniɣ ur ssinen ara yemdanen ula d azgen seg wayen uriɣ. D tidet llan aṭas n wid ɣezzifen gar-asen. Kra imedyaten kan:
– Asefru “Tikkwal” deg “Awisdacut” deg-s 53 isebtaren. Wagi uriɣ-t ɣef tuccḍiwin yellan ass-a di tmetti taqbaylit. Lemmer i d as-ddiɣ di lebɣi i wul-iw, ur t-ttfakeɣ ara yakk, mačči kan 53 isebtaren ara yilin deg-s.
– Asefru “Imeṭṭi n bab idurar” d ungal akken ma yella i d-rriɣ d asefru, ulamek aruɣ kan kra n tefyirin dɣa dayen. Yessefk a d-ssiwleɣ tamacahut-is akken ma tella s usefru. Wigi d kra imedyaten kan n wacuɣer ɣezzifit isefra-w. Sɛiɣ daɣen aṭas isefra iwezzlanen d ilemmasen. Yal asefru amek-it…

Ameɣnas: Isefra i d-tessuqleḍ, d acu i k-iɛeǧben deg-sen? Imi ulac-iten ɣur-neɣ, d isental, d aɣanen, neɣ d azal umeskar?

Z. A. M.: Ulac akk isefra i d-ssuqleɣ, ḥaca ma llan gar-asen ahat yiwen neɣ sin; ula d widak ma ulac akk ad tafeḍ deg-sen 20/30% n wesmuḥyet.
Tasuqqilt (aterǧem) d ccɣel-nniḍen, ayagi ur ẓriɣ ara ma d taqbaylit ur d as-nezmir ara akka tura (ass-a) neɣ d nekkini kan. Isefra n imeskaren iberraniyen i d-wwiɣ ɣer teqbaylit d asmuḥyet i ten-id-smuḥeyteɣ yerna mačči aṭas, neɣbeɣ-d kan am tyaẓiṭ kra ssya d ssyahin.
Aṭas n ssebbat i d iyi-wwin xedmeɣ aya, yiwet gar-asent d ta: Tuget n tmeslayin n ddunit ad tafeḍ tettwaru yes-sent tsekla tagraɣlant akken ma tella. Amedya, ulac ayen yelhan di tsekla tafransist neɣ taglizit ur t-tettafeḍ ara s talmant yerna d tasuqqilt, mačči kan d asmuḥyet. Ula d nekk d ayagi i d iyi-wwin rniɣ-d tiqit-iw am wiyaḍ d tiyaḍ ɣer ssḍel-nni ččuren Umeẓyan Kezzar d Muḥya deg weḥric-agi n wesmuḥyet.
D acu kan, ur ẓriɣ ara ma yelha wayen xedmeɣ, ma tewleɣ ula d nekk deg wannect-a neɣ xaṭi; acku ulac anwa i d-yuran fell-as kra s wudem ussnan ad aɣ-d-yessefhem ugar.
Llan imeddukal i d iyi-d-yennan dakken iwenneɛ ula d leqdic-iw, rnan-iyi ifadden; maca, ur ẓriɣ ara aṭas. Ma d imeskaren yakk d yeḍrisen ferneɣ d widak ilan azal, ih. Brel, Brecht, von Göthe …atg. d ismawen, ma d ayen i d-ssekkren, mačči alamma nniɣ-d nekk yelha.

Ameɣnas: D acu i d-terniḍ ama i kečč, ama i tmedyezt-ik s wesmuḥyet-nni? D acu i tufiḍ ɣur-sen, ulac-it ɣur-neɣ.

Z. A. M.: Cukkeɣ ur yemgarad ara aṭas westeqsi-yagi d win i t-id-yezwaren. Asteqsi-yagi ad yelhu ad t-yefk yiwen i Umeẓyan; d netta i ixedmen aṭas deg weḥric-agi. Nekk kra isefra kan i d-neɣbeɣ ssya d ssyahin, ihi a d-alseɣ kan awal i d-nniɣ yakan: Ula d taqbaylit tuklal ad tili (deg-s d yes-s) tsekla tagraɣlant. D acu, nniɣ-ak yakan, ur ẓriɣ ara ma tewleɣ ula d nekk i waya. Abbuh ma a d-inin wid i d-yeqqaren! (…idess)

Ameɣnas: Seg usefru ɣer tmachut, amek i d-yella waya? D tamacahut i d-yusan s asefru neɣ d asefru i iruḥen ɣer tmacahut?

Z. A. M.: I westeqsi-yagi-inek d tmacahut neɣ d asefru? (…ides)
D acu ara k-iniɣ a Naser a gma? Ttaruɣ isefra mi ara d iyi-d-taweḍ nnefḥa akken ad ssefruɣ, timucuha ur uriɣ ara nekk, smuḥeyteɣ-d kra n watmaten Grimm d wiyaḍ, ar tura zwareɣ ssẓergeɣ-d adlis n kra seg-sent s wezwel “Tam (8) n tmucuha n at Grimm s teqbaylit.”

Ameɣnas: D acu i tesmenyifeḍ, d asefru neɣ d tamacahut? Amek armi i tent-sddukleḍ, ladɣa di kra n tmucuha; ɣas akken ula d isefra tikkwal d timucuha?

Z. A. M.: Ḥemmleɣ isefra, ḥemmleɣ timucuha. Ḥemmleɣ akk taẓuri s umata, ladɣa tasekla. Nniɣ-ak timucuha-nni mačči d nekk i tent-id-yesnulfan, ula d atmaten Grimm jemmɛen-tent-id akk ssya d ssyahin deg umaḍal; gerrzen-tent s wudmawen apidaguji yakk d useklan i d asent-fkan. Mi tent-id-smuḥeyteɣ ɛerḍeɣ akk akken zemreɣ akken ur tent-ssufuɣeɣ ara seg webrid-nni ideg i itent-id-wwin, ulamma s tmeslayt-nniḍen neɣ i tmetti-nniḍen i wumi i tent-uriɣ. Ula d akken i tent-uran nutni llan isefra-nni deg-sent, d acu kan nekk fkiɣ-asent i tmucuha, fkiɣ-asen daɣen i isefra yellan deg-sent ṭṭabeɛ aqbayli.

Ameɣnas: Timucuha-nneɣ tttwarwint, tttujeggḥent (s taεrabt d tineslemt), ahat laqen wid ara ixedmen am watmaten Grimm. Dacut-tt tmuɣli-k?

Z. A. M.: Tuget n tmucuha-nneɣ ur d-tegri ara deg-sent rriḥa n teqbaylit am wakka i d-tenniḍ, yes-sent i d aɣ-ẓẓlen Waɛraben-inselmen iḍarren-nsen aṭas aya ɣef yiri lkanun. Atmaten Grimm ur ẓriɣ ara ma nezmer akka tura ad naru am nutni, ulamma yiwen deg-sen yewweḍ sanda ara naweḍ di 1859, wayeḍ di 1863.
Maca, nezmer ad neɛreḍ a d-nesnulfu timucuha timaynutin s wudem atrar, s teqbaylit zeddigen; s tmuɣliwin lqayen tigraɣlanin d yedles-nneɣ n tidet.
Ayen i d aɣ-ixuṣṣen da neɣ dahin nezmer ad t-id-neddem war akukru sɣur yegduden n tafat; mačči n tallest. Nezmer daɣen ad nɛerreḍ xerṣum i wesmuḥyet n wayen uran imeqqranen-agi n ddunit, d acu yessefk ad sent-ngerrez ccɣel, ma ulac tuɣal ar din.
Greɣ tamawt, llan yakan widak i d-yesmuḥeyten timucuha n watmaten Grimm ɣer teqbaylit, mi ara sen-tesleḍ; ad tɣileḍ di Lkeɛba Crifa i k-yuɣ lḥal. Widak-nni ɣur-i ulac at tmegraḍ i ten-yugaren. Yessefk ad neggaret tamawt akken yessefk, mačči ayen yettwarun akk s teqbaylit d taqbaylit.
Snulfaɣ-d i yiman-iw awal-agi qqareɣ-t: Muḥya d taqbaylit, taqbaylit d Muḥya. Ayagi ila aṭas inumak ɣur-i.
Nekkni s widak-agi ččan wulawen ɣef waya ur nesɛi ara zzher, nettwagdel si yal tama.

Ameɣnas: Adlis “Timucuha n at Grimm s teqbaylit, d asmuḥyet si talmant; d acu kan mi ara tent-teɣreḍ ad tiniḍ di tmurt n Leqbayel i d-ḍrant. Amek iga ccɣel-agi, yusa-d s sshala neɣ d ayen i k-iɛetben?

Z. A. M.: Am wakken i k-nniɣ yakan, d asmuḥyet; mačči d tasuqqilt (aterǧem). Lemmer d wis-sin-agi yessefk ad yaru wemdan timucuha-nni awal s wawal akken i tent-uran imeskaren-nsent. Imi ayagi ur d as-zmireɣ ara, ferneɣ abrid amezwaru. Abrid-agi cukkeɣ akken i twulem deg-s tikli, ma yella d acurered-nni n tsekrin (titinikin-nni yakk n wamek ara terreḍ Lalman d tamurt n Yeqbayliyen neɣ akken-nniḍen) d ayen i d-nelmed yakan di temẓi sɣur Muḥya. Yerna netta yekker-asen i lecɣal imeqqranen, mačči d timecṭuḥin-agi kan.
Daɣen ulac d acu i d-yettasen yeshel, ulamma meẓẓi ccɣel; yessefk-as uxemmem. D acu, ur ɛtibeɣ ara deg-s. Ma yehwa-yak s lferḥ i t-xedmeɣ ccɣel-nni. D acu kan yewwi-yi aṭas d waṭas n wakud.

Ameɣnas: Dacu-t uzekka n tira taqbaylit? D acu-t ubrid i yessefken ad tawi ass-a?

Z. A. M.: Azekka n tira taqbaylit ur ẓriɣ ara amek ara yili, ur ẓriɣ ara ula ma ad tili teqbaylit azekka. Ma d amek yessefk ad tili ass-a ahat mačči d nekk i d win iwulmen a d-rreɣ ɣef westeqsi-yagi; d acu ssarameɣ ad tili d tira yetteddun deg webrid n talsa, n tafat, uwali, mačči deg win n tallest, nnger yakk d tidderɣelt!

Aneɣmas: D acu i d iswi-k imi tettaruḍ?

Z. A. M.: Iswi-w akken ad rebḥeɣ aṭas n yedrimen. (…idess)

Tamawt :Temɣer n wul d lxaṭeṛ n ziri, tanemmirt diɣ i Ghezali At Saada win yessulin adiwenni-ya.